tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8697901752862709792.post3786569964812281992..comments2009-10-15T10:02:16.382-07:00Comments on JEW-WITH-A-VIEW: JUDAISM: Not 'just Christianity without Jesus'Zionistahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01753719460466097912noreply@blogger.comBlogger2125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8697901752862709792.post-23948271955964945732008-07-12T21:22:00.000-07:002008-07-12T21:22:00.000-07:00Hi Tabatha. I got a copy of the Tanakh in the JPS...Hi Tabatha. I got a copy of the Tanakh in the JPS translation, so hopefully we can avoid arguments about correct translations and such.<BR/><BR/>I don’t think showing a list of differences between Jews and Christians is enough to say that Christianity is not Judaism. After all, I can show a list of differences between protestants and Catholics, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t both Christian. And I can show a difference between Baptists and Methodists, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t both Christians.<BR/><BR/>Besides, a person might come along and show you all the similarities between Judaism and Christianity in order to demonstrate that Christianity is a sect of Judaism. Then you’d have to argue about whether it was the differences that mattered or whether it was the similarities that mattered.<BR/><BR/>I think there’s a better way. You need to come up with a definition of Judaism—maybe some core elements about what Judaism is. And then show that some of the core tenants of Christianity contradict them. I think that would definitely show that Christianity and Judaism are not the same religion and it’s therefore impossible to be both.<BR/><BR/>For example, you might argue like so:<BR/><BR/>1. A Jew is a person who X, Y, and Z, but not A, B, and C.<BR/>2. A Christian is a person who X, Y and A, but not Z, B, and C.<BR/>3. Therefore, no Christian is a Jew.<BR/><BR/>I’ll try to tell you what I think are the bare bones essentials of Christianity such that if a person denies any one of these things, they are no longer a Christian (in my view, anyway).<BR/><BR/>1. There is one God.<BR/>2. Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ.<BR/>3. Christ died for sins (entails that there is such a thing as right and wrong).<BR/>4. Christ was raised from the dead.<BR/><BR/>If a person affirms all of these things, then they are a Christian, however heretical some of their other beliefs might be. But if they deny any one of these things, then they are not a Christian. For example, if a person denied that there was any such thing as right and wrong, they can’t be a Christian, because if there’s no such thing as right and wrong, then there’s no such thing as sin, and if there’s no such thing as sin, then Jesus didn’t die for sins.<BR/><BR/>What about Judaism? How would you define a Jew? While I have no complaint with you saying that Jews don’t believe in virgin births, I have a hard time believing that the denial of virgin births is part of the <I>definition</I> of a Jew such that if a person thinks virgin births are possible or that they may have even happened, then the person is not a Jew. I’ve never heard anybody define Judaism as a non-belief in virgin births until you came along.<BR/><BR/>Now I want to respond to some of the specific things you said.<BR/><BR/><I>JUDAISM<BR/>- says that no human can ever die for the sins of others</I><BR/><BR/>Who is the suffering servant of Isaiah 53? It says, “But he was wounded because of our sins, crushed because of our iniquities. He bore the chastisement that made us whole, and by his bruises we were healed. We all went astray like sheep, each going his own way; and the LORD visited upon him the guilt of all of us,” (Isaiah 53:5-6) and “For he was cut off from the land of the living through the sin of my people, who deserved the punishment,” (v. 8) and “My righteous servant makes the many righteous. It is their punishment that he bears” (v. 11). The suffering servant obviously dies for the sins of Israel. But the suffering servant cannot be Israel itself because (1) he dies <I>for</I> Israel, and (2) “we” are all guilty of sin and worthy of punishment while the suffering servant “had done no injustice and had spoken no falsehood” (v. 9) and is a “righteous servant” (v. 11). If no human can ever die for the sins of others, then the suffering servant cannot be a human. Read the whole chapter. Start from Isaiah 52:13.<BR/><BR/><I>JUDAISM<BR/>- says that all humans are born pure, and innocent</I><BR/><BR/>Then how do Jews understand these verses from the Tanakh?<BR/><BR/>Psalm 51:7 “Indeed I was born with iniquity; with sin my mother conceived me.”<BR/><BR/>Psalm 58:4 “The wicked are defiant from birth; the liars go astray from the womb.”<BR/><BR/><I>JUDAISM<BR/>- says that G-d would never allow/enable a 'virgin birth'</I><BR/><BR/>But the Tanakh does <I>not</I> say that. So why do you consider this an <I>essential</I> of Judaism?<BR/><BR/><I>JUDAISM<BR/>- says that no man gets a 'second coming'</I><BR/><BR/>But the Tanakh does <I>not</I> say that. In fact, the Tanakh says just the opposite. Everybody gets a second coming at the resurrection (Daniel 12:2, Isaiah 26:19, Ezekiel 37:12-14).<BR/><BR/><I>JUDAISM<BR/>- says that every human should speak directly to G-d</I><BR/><BR/>So does Christianity. See Matthew 6:9 (obviously not in the Tanakh! :-Þ)<BR/><BR/><I>JUDAISM<BR/>- says that we are ALL equally G-d's children<BR/>CHRISTIANITY<BR/>- says that Jesus was 'god's son' above all others</I><BR/><BR/>“Son of God” is a messianic title used of kings of Israel. In making the king of Israel his “firstborn,” God was making him “the highest of the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:28; see also Psalm 2:6-7 and 2 Samuel 7:12-14.) Clearly the messiah is a son of God in some special sense.<BR/><BR/><I>JUDAISM<BR/>- forbids Jews from trying to convert anyone to Judaism</I><BR/><BR/>Why is it forbidden?<BR/><BR/>My brother-in-law, who is an atheist, comes from a Jewish family, and I had an argument with him one day about whether a Christian could be a Jew. He insisted that they couldn’t. But he still considers himself to be a Jew even though he’s an atheist. I found it ironic that he thinks Christians, who believe in God, cannot be Jews, but atheists, who deny the existence of God, can. What do you think about that? Do you think an atheist can be a Jew?<BR/><BR/><I>The Jewish bible, the Tanakh, makes it clear that no Jew can follow another religion or deity AND remain Jewish: a person who was born a Jew can at some point cease to be called a Jew.</I><BR/><BR/>The Tanakh doesn’t even use “Jew” to designate a member of a religion. A Jew is somebody from the tribe of Judah. Nowhere does it say that a person ceases to be a Jew when they follow another religion or deity. In fact, it seems to imply just the opposite (see all of Ezekiel 16, especially the last few verses, 59-63).<BR/><BR/><I>In other words, you are either a Jew or a worshiper of Baal. Not both.</I><BR/><BR/>Those “other words” are nowhere found, though. And if a person ceased to be a Jew, how is it that God intends to keep the promises he made for Jews to those people?<BR/><BR/>Does a person cease to be a Jew for <I>any</I> sin or just the sin of becoming a Christian?Sam Harperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15884738370893218595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8697901752862709792.post-88021388933677874432008-07-11T00:02:00.000-07:002008-07-11T00:02:00.000-07:00Well said. Christians who view their religion as ...Well said. Christians who view their religion as 'completed' or 'perfected' Judaism should bear in mind that Muslims view their own religion as the final correct version of both Christianity and Judaism, so that sort of thinking places Christianity as neither the original or ultimate religion, but as a mere historical stop-gap...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com